My Prop 8 Debate and Dr. Phil

Burned out on Prop 8? Me too. But the show must go on apparently.

SO, I must apologize that I never reported back regarding how the "debate" (it was more of a presentation) went regarding Prop 8. Well, supposedly the man I debated, Jason, is going to be a guest on Dr. Phil today at 4PM on channel 2, which got me thinking about it. So, here's a brief description of how things went.

Jason and I went out to dinner with the professor the class. We ate at BJ's Restaurant and Brewhouse. He ordered a sausage and pepperoni pizza and I ordered their new Mediterranean pie which was excellent (feta, peppercinis, etc.). During the meal we discussed the topic of homosexuality and he shared with us that he had been "in the closet" up until he was about thirty-three. That was a bit shocking since he's very "pro-gay" and has been married now to his partner for a few years. I must admit it's tough to tell someone they can't do something, such as get married, when they're sharing their innermost feelings and describing their experiences in such an intimate way. I simply had to remind myself that the issue is not about rights but about the definition and concept of a sacred covenant (today I thought about it like this: if my Sarah died and I had to raise the children on my own, I would be a father, not a mother, despite the fact that I would do my best to "mother" them, it woudn't change the fundamental fact or definition of what a mother is...maybe that's not a perfect analogy, but it gets the point across hopefully(.

After we ate, the three of us drove over to the University of Redlands. Now, the professor did not tell the students which of us was gay and which of was straight; he had the students make a guess. Since Jason is quite masculine, the class was nearly divided and slightly more of them thought I was the gay one.

Once we were settled in, it was my turn to present the pro-8 side. I stood up, introduced myself and presented my point of view. Although I stuck to a secular, rational argument, the first thing I said was the I believe that God intended marriage to be between a man and woman. Actually, what I think I'll do is upload the PPT to a website where you, the lovely reader, can download it. The presentation went well and I felt blessed to speak clearly and to express my views plainly. I ended up skipping through many slides because I felt I had already made certain points. In the end, I expressed my gratitude to the class and made it very explicit that I, and those whom I represent, love all people and do not wish to hurt anyone. The class applauded, Jason stood and shook my hand and then he took the stage.

From both a rational and emotional point of view, Jason did a fantastic job. He initially expressed his dismay at the possibility of an amdendment, for the first time in US history, being passed that would take away the rights of a group of people. He then told his personal coming out story and how negatively his parents were affected. He then went into detail about how wonderful it was when they accepted him and his partner for who they were and showed photos from his wedding. I could tell the class was emotionally moved by his words. He went on and expressed a number of scriptures from the Bible about how it was OK to take slaves, stone people to death, and so forth and stated that although he believes in God and respects the Bible, that the books contained in the Bible were written for a certain group of people in a certain historical context and that not everything therein can pertain to our nation and world today, thousands of years later. He also talked about issues concerning church and state and so forth and so on.

In the end, we stood, shook hands, embraced one another, agreed to disagree and the class expressed their gratitude to each of us for taking the time to share our ideas, despite the nerve-racking nature of presenting such intimate feelings to complete strangers. The instructor then had a vote. It think 9 said they'd vote NO on Prop 8 while 3 said they'd vote YES and two were still undecided. Who could be undecided at that point? Strange.

It was then time for some Q&A and this is when things got a lot more interesting, at least for me. People started asking questions that dealt a lot more with spirituality and religion. I ended up sharing that I am LDS with them because the discussion turned to the "Mormons." There was a lot of misinformation regarding our part in the deal. In fact, one woman even had a false statement from the LDS church leaders stating that the church had made a terrible mistake on the issue and was immediately pulling support from the prop and asking all members to apologize to their gay and lesbian friends.

The most suprising thing that happened is that someone asked me about Mormons being persecuted and I explained our exodous to the West. I also detailed the murder of the Prophet Joseph and got choked up while giving the description.

Anyhow, the main thing that impressed them was our overall objectivity and lack of animosity for one another. Now, I cannot speak for Jason, but I truly felt no anger or frustration with him. I actually empathize with him. In my view, those who are stauncchly for gay marriage truly think it's the right thing to do. For me, it comes down to profound truths about procreation in this life and in the life to come.

As I drove home I felt a great sense of contentment and gratitude that God allowed me to stand and witness for truth and that the audience was respectful and thoughtful. Although there were only about fifteen students, it might as well been hundreds based on the way it felt to stand up and deliver.

So, if you get the chance, tune in and you can see Jason tonight on TV arguing that Prop 8 should be overturned for the sake of equality and love.

Thank you to everyone who supported me by giving me information and checking in on how things went.

***UPDATE: Jason was in the audience but not actually a panelist (he was sitting on the isle wearing a blazer of a green button up shirt and sitting next to his partner).